|
|
Post by Mr. Thomas on Mar 24, 2014 12:03:11 GMT -5
Holden gets wasted, makes mad decisions.
|
|
|
|
Post by stephanoscocoves on Mar 24, 2014 19:03:01 GMT -5
E. Holden is a reck. Just like we were talking in class he has a serious drinking problem, and again he talks about his death while he at the pond. I feel bad for it seems like nothing is going right in his life and he needs some happiness.
C. Im confused why Holden keeps asking these older women to go out with him. Its obvious that it's not working why doesnt he just try to hang out with people his own age. I honestly think he needs some friends that are alike to him.
F. I liked the quote, "The best break I had in years, when I got home the regular night elevator boy, Pete, wasn't on the car"(157) I like this quote a lot because it shows something good happening in his life and that his life is very sad. Having the regular elevator boy not being there makes him happy, just shows how terrible his life has been. I probably wouldnt even have noticed if I were him.
|
|
|
|
Post by rozzayhill007 on Mar 24, 2014 19:13:28 GMT -5
C. What importance does the lake have in chapter 20. Like he talks about it like it has some relevance, but I don't really see how it relates to the chapter at all. I also don't really understand the ending of chapter 21, like it just abruptly ends, and it says he was all out. Just the way the chapter ends confuses me a lot.
D. A quote that I like is when he describes when his parents visit Allie's grave, "When the weather's nice, my parents go out quite frequently and stick a bunch of flowers on old Allie's grave. I went with them a couple of times, but I cut it out. In the first place, I certainly don't enjoy seeing him in that crazy cemetary. Surrounded by dead guys and tombstones and all. It wasn't too bad when the sun was out but twice-twice-we were there when it started to rain." I like the image I get in my head when he is describing the sunny days, and also I feel like this is a scene straight ot of the movies, which kind of entertains me.
E. I feel like Holden is more courageous to do things like contact girls in his life only when he is drunk. I think that getting drunk helps him to lose his self conciousness. Maybe drinking more may help him open up, but controlling his drinking is also a key part in this as well. He even says, "when I'm drunk, I'm a madman." He relaxes, and doesn't stress about life or what people may think of him. I also feel that in chapter 21 Holden shows some typ of good connection with Phoebe, which I think is good at this point in his life.
|
|
|
|
Post by richteri16 on Mar 24, 2014 19:55:08 GMT -5
D. I found the part where Holden is coming into his apartment funny but not for the obvious reasons. I found it funny because he was emphasizing how he was really sneaky coming into the house and all. He was taking forever to walk down the hall and he was very cautious. When I combined this and the fact that he was just horribly drunk and probably still a bit drunk it reminded me of something. I thought of how in the movies a drugged or drunk person will try to do something really neatly or stealthy. It seems that the person has done it right but when he sobers up he sees that it looks like a bomb blew up. A good example is in The Wolf Of Wall Street where he gets into his car and thinks he drives really safely. However he learned while being arrested that he caused extreme damage and totaled his car.
E. I was so glad that Holden did not call Jane while drunk. That would have been a nightmare especially since her dad is such a hard ass. I was happy that he called Sally though. I hate her and I am glad their relationship took that hit of him calling her while drunk. Holden has to get away from her.
F. I can tell that there is a lot of Love between Holden and Phoebe. Even though she is talking about stupid stuff like the movie she saw and her upcoming show Holden still listens.
|
|
|
|
Post by michaelgenco on Mar 24, 2014 20:52:10 GMT -5
D. Two quotes that I found very sad were:“I didn’t have anything else to do, so I kept sitting on the radiator and counting these little white squares on the floor. I was getting soaked. About a gallon of water was dripping down my neck, getting all over my collar and tie and all, but I didn’t give a damn. I was too drunk to give a damn.” (Salinger 152) “ Then something terrible happened just as I got in the park. I dropped old Phoebe’s record. It broke into about fifty pieces. It was in a big envelope and all, but it broke anyway. I damn near cried, it made me feel so terrible, but all I did was, I took the pieces out of the envelope and put them in my coat pocket. They weren’t any good for anything, but I didn’t feel like just throwing tem away. Then I went in the park.” (Salinger 154) Both of these quotes were very sad to me. Chapter 20 and 21 just show how Holden really hit rock bottom and has nothing to live for. He is sitting outside in the rain getting soaked because he has nowhere else to go. Then, he brakes the one thing that he loved so much for his sister.
C. Why is Holden so afraid of getting buried with other dead people? Why would he rather be thrown into a river rather than being put into a cemetery?
I. I agree with stephanoscocoves ‘E’ response. Holden is a complete reck in these chapters, and it is very sad to see that.
|
|
|
|
Post by hessd16 on Mar 24, 2014 21:37:05 GMT -5
i. i agree with michaelgenco those quotes were very deep and sad : D. Two quotes that I found very sad were:“I didn’t have anything else to do, so I kept sitting on the radiator and counting these little white squares on the floor. I was getting soaked. About a gallon of water was dripping down my neck, getting all over my collar and tie and all, but I didn’t give a damn. I was too drunk to give a damn.” (Salinger 152) “ Then something terrible happened just as I got in the park. I dropped old Phoebe’s record. It broke into about fifty pieces. It was in a big envelope and all, but it broke anyway. I damn near cried, it made me feel so terrible, but all I did was, I took the pieces out of the envelope and put them in my coat pocket. They weren’t any good for anything, but I didn’t feel like just throwing tem away. Then I went in the park.” (Salinger 154) Both of these quotes were very sad to me. Chapter 20 and 21 just show how Holden really hit rock bottom and has nothing to live for. He is sitting outside in the rain getting soaked because he has nowhere else to go. Then, he brakes the one thing that he loved so much for his sister.
C. It is interesting how Holden is excited to see his family again, especially Phoebe, in Chapter 21. In the other chapters, Holden was always mentioning about not going or meeting with his family and his personal friends, such as Jane, because of not breaking the perfect moments that he had with these people. Will Holden realize that making everything perfect or just leaving the same is not the way to make genuine relationships with anybody? Will Holden make a dramatic change in his life and continue the dreams that he desires and want to happen?
e. i this scene was interesting: Holden takes the elevator up to his family’s apartment. Luckily for him, the regular elevator operator is gone, and he is able to convince the new one, who doesn’t recognize him, that he wants to visit the Dicksteins, who live across the hall from the Caulfields.
|
|
|
|
Post by hankmichels on Mar 25, 2014 7:18:26 GMT -5
E. DB. That stands for Holden’s brutha and Discussion Board. Wow. Just noticed that now
C. I wonder if the reason finally went to see his sister is because he finally realizes that he is going crazy. After his conversation with luce he gets drunk and tries to pick up girls. You can tell how horribly desperate this guy is. First he calls sally, like that would work. When she rejects him he goes for the lounges singer or whatever, and when that doesn’t work he hits on the hat girl. Talk about desperate. I don’t think it gets as bad as that. Then holden does something I find very interesting. He decides to walk into central park and look at the ducks. After all this time asking about them, he chooses to see if they are there. Maybe because he feels he has sunken to their level. On his way he lets it all out. He starts sobbing and his hair freezes. I think this may be the low point in holdens story. Or maybe just the end to his bar and lounge visiting. I guess its here he decides he has nothing to loose and visits his sister.
G. I wonder if Allie and Phoebe and Jane are all he cares about in the world. I thought back and wondered: why is he so unstable? All I came up with was that he was kicked out of school and his brother died. Seeing that the school thing hardly bothered him it must have been allies death that ruined him.
|
|
|
|
Post by petergiglio on Mar 25, 2014 7:24:30 GMT -5
C. “Why now, why go to his house now?”, I think that he went to his house because he was tired of waiting and I believe he was running out of money, as well.
e. I’m so glad to finally see this girl that we have been waiting to meet for a long time. She seems like a very nice and innocent little girl. It seems like she tries to bring out the good side in Holden. I remember how she wasn’t listening to Holden when he was trying to how and why he was kicked out of Pency. I think she gets out the better side of him. All of those different things he said actually were true, because he was right about his sister and her innocence. I think that she is the only other character that I like, besides Holden.
c. I am not understanding a few different things. If Holden was drunk, why would Sally be the first person that he called of all people ? If he was truly impaired, wouldn’t it be more believable that he would call Phoebe since she has been the one that he’s been trying to talk to for the whole book ? Also, if Holden is retelling his story in this book, how does he remember what happened if he is drunk ? With so many drinks, shouldn’t he have blacked out or successfully achieved a hangover.
|
|
|
|
Post by zaysofly on Mar 25, 2014 19:39:36 GMT -5
C: Why does Holden always get so drunk all the time. In the past 5 or so chapters, all Holden has done was drink at bars and get crazy. It doesn't make any seance. One he is underage and he cant and shouldn't be consuming so much alcohol. two, if it is for a fun time, then it shouldn't be all the time or in such a large quantity of consumption. Maybe he is using it as a coping mechanism.
D: i think Holden might be drinking so excessively is because he doesn't know where he stands in this world. Is he supposed to be innocent or is he supposed to be grown up. I think it just connects with the whole thing about him trying to hold his innocence, yet with all this new stress he has, like him getting kicked out of school and Jane, he chooses to act like an adult, because that is what he thinks is right. for instance he drunkenly walks path the duck pond with phoebes record. This is kind of like a double negative, hes drunk acting like a man, yet he has a little kid record and is looking for ducks at the duck pond. then he even sneaks into his own house to see Phoebe
F: If i were holden, i would feel really ashamed that my sister is so sad about me getting kicked out pency and i am not. I mean what does she know shes younger. id also have a pretty mean hangover.
|
|
|
|
Post by jotirmoykundu on Mar 25, 2014 19:50:49 GMT -5
I. I agree with michaelgenco those quotes were sad: “D. Two quotes that I found very sad were:“I didn’t have anything else to do, so I kept sitting on the radiator and counting these little white squares on the floor. I was getting soaked. About a gallon of water was dripping down my neck, getting all over my collar and tie and all, but I didn’t give a damn. I was too drunk to give a damn.” (Salinger 152) “ Then something terrible happened just as I got in the park. I dropped old Phoebe’s record. It broke into about fifty pieces. It was in a big envelope and all, but it broke anyway. I damn near cried, it made me feel so terrible, but all I did was, I took the pieces out of the envelope and put them in my coat pocket. They weren’t any good for anything, but I didn’t feel like just throwing them away. Then I went in the park.” (Salinger 154)
E. Holden is a complete mess. It is clear that he has a drinking problem, and again he talks about his death while he at the pond. I almost feel bad because everything is going wrong in his life and its almost more frustrating that anything
C. Im confused why Holden constantly tries to get older women and constantly getting rejected at the same time and not learning from his mistakes. It’s obvious that it's not working why doesnt he just try to hang out with people his own age.
|
|
|
|
Post by raypark on Mar 25, 2014 22:05:24 GMT -5
E. These few chapters of the book really show who Holden really is. We see Holden in his most vulnerable state, his drunk state. Holden decides to randomly call Sally Hayes, which they parted under a very bad note, and says to her that he will come over to her house and trim the christmas trees with her. I think that this action shows Holden's lonliness in the world. It shows that Holden really needs a friend and that he really wants one. We also see this when Holden goes to see his little sister Phoebe. Phoebe is a very smart and bright girl. She understands her situation very quickly and grasps knowledge of things in a matter of seconds. We see this when she figures out that Holden has been Kicked out of Prency Prep.
C. There are a couple of things that confuse me. Firstly, why did he even call Sally Hayes in the first place? He did not like Sally whatsoever, he thinks that she is a very big phony and dumb, so why does she have interest for her at all?
I. I agree with Hank about his statements on Holden's cares. I do also think that Jane, Allie, and Phoebe are the only things that Holden cares about in the world. We see this through his actions and attitudes towards certain things.
|
|
|
|
Post by mikeloseto on Mar 28, 2014 18:42:11 GMT -5
C. I think Holden finally going to see his sister is his breaking point. I think he realized that he has gone mad. He hasn't sought after any form of help as far as I'm concerned but now, him going to see his sister, I believe he has hit rock bottom. He understands that his life is a wreck and he needs to do something about it.
I. I agree with what Hank said about what Holden cares about. I also believe that Jane, Allie, and Phoebe are the only people that he cares about. He obviously doesn't care about anything else so I guess if he were to care about anything or anyone, it would be for them.
E. I'm glad to finally see the true side of Holden. Throughout these past chapters, we've seen Holden as this self-destructive person but now we see him refreshed in some sort of way. I just get the sense that we are seeing what Holden wants to be and what doesn't want to be. He wants to have friends and he wants to have people that care about him.
|
|
|
|
Post by youssefj16 on Mar 29, 2014 12:52:23 GMT -5
E. It seems to me that Holden has serious drinking problems. He gets drunk and than decides to go home to talk to his sister. I was really confused with this. Holden knows better than to go to his sister drunk, why does he do it?
I. I agree with hank's C reply. Holden is just so hopeless. he can't get into a serious relationship with any girl, not even Jane, so he tries looking for compensation with his sister hoping that he will be happier with her. I find this very sad.
C. I think it's really sad on how Holden's sister cares more about him getting kicked out of school than he does. It rally shows how sad Holden's life is becoming. It seems that he's just really starting to give up on his life.
|
|
