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Post by Mr. Thomas on Mar 21, 2014 13:40:22 GMT -5
"Comin thro the rye..."
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Post by rozzayhill007 on Mar 22, 2014 20:09:08 GMT -5
C. One thing I don't understand is why again Holden wants to hang out with people who he calls phony's. He calls Carl Luce, and wants to chill with him but in the very same paragraph he says that he once called Carl a phony. He was always disgusted by people who were phony's but now it seems like he is starting to like them. Or not necessarily like them, but he doesn't mind spending time with them.
D. A line that I like is, "Then, when she was all done whispering and being cute as hell, she'd sing some dopey song, half in English and half in French, and drive all the phonies in the place mad with joy." I like these lines because it shows that Holden is starting to like these phonies that he previously hated. He isn't really critcizing them like he had been, but I don' think that he has become accepting of them as yet.
E. I am surprised that Holden wants to hang out with more people who he considers to be fake, or phony's. If he really dislikes people like that then he should just not hang out with them at all. However I feel like if he didn't hang out with people who are phony, he wouldn't have many friends at all.
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Post by richteri16 on Mar 23, 2014 12:28:52 GMT -5
I. I want to add onto what Jackson said for option E. I think that Holden is actually starting to like the phonies. He used to despise the phonies but he still hung out with them. Now he is having a true conversation with Luce at the bar. He still has the mindset that he doesn’t like the phonies but he is subjecting himself to them. I think that after time he too will be a phony and the transformation will be complete.
E. I really enjoy the settings of the bars Holden has been going to. It is like he cant find that perfect place to hang out at. They all seem to have phony and lame qualities to them. for example Ernie’s has mediocre music and was packed. The Lavender Room was just plain weird too. Now he is at this new bar with Luce. The bartender seems to be the king of phonies and everyone else is trying to be one too. I mean there has to be at least one bar in the whole borough of Manhattan that Holden will like.
C. I don’t get why Holden still subjects himself to the things he hates most. These chapters were like everything he hated all wrapped into one. There was the dopey show and movie at Radio City. Then he goes to the phony bar to meet his phony friend Luce. Holden has to get himself out of there if it bothers himself so much. He is killing himself.
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Post by stephanoscocoves on Mar 23, 2014 20:13:21 GMT -5
C. It confuses me that whenever holden is feeling lonely he decides to call someone and make plans. then when he is finally with that person he is very rude to them and makes them annoyed and they end up leaving. Does he understand that he is pushing people away like this? I think that he doesnt know what he is doing so when people are rude back to him it makes him hate them. E. I was surprised that all the people he has ended up hanging out with have been fake and has not liked them. That just restates that fact that the only person for him is Jane. I. I agree with with richteri16 he's never really talked about doing anything he actually likes. He's attempted it like calling Jane and trying to find Phoebe at the park but nothing really. |
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Post by michaelgenco on Mar 23, 2014 21:38:11 GMT -5
E. “The trouble was, thought, my address book only has about three people in it. Jane, and this man, Mr. Antolini, that was my teacher at Elkton Hills, and my father’s office number. I keep forgetting to put people’s names in.” (Salinger 136) For some reason I think Holden is lying about forgetting to put people’s names in. Throughout the story we see that Holden has no friends. Why all of a sudden would he have all of these numbers? Also, I think that the reason that he has these three numbers is because he actually cares about these people to get there number and right it down. We know that Holden loves Jane, so that’s why he has her number.
D. Two quotes that I thought were interesting were: “ The trouble with girls is, if they like a boy, no matter how big a bastard he is, they’ll say e has an inferiority complex, and if they don’t like him, no matter how nice a guys he is, or how big an inferiority complex he has, they’ll say he’s conceited. Even smart girls do it.” (Salinger 136) “It was the only dive he could do, but he thought he was very hot stuff. All muscles and no brains. Anyway, that’s who Jane dated that night, I couldn’t understand it. I swear I couldn’t.” (Salinger 135) Both of these quotes reminded me of how jealous Holden is of the cool guys. The first quote shows how the nice guys finishes last, and he thinks he falls in that category. The second quote shows how Holden didn’t get Jane and this tool did.
I. I agree with Jackson Hill’s ‘E’ response. Why does Holden still hang out with all of these phonies? He says he hates them.
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Post by raypark on Mar 23, 2014 21:48:28 GMT -5
A. In these two chapters we see a part of Holden that is different from the beginning of the book. We see a true and lonesome side of him. When Holden is watching the War movie by himself, he showed his true feelings and what he truly desired, friends. There was a part in the chapter when Holden wanted to try and call someone from his phone. But he only had 3 people in his contacts list. This was very sad. Holden says after that saying that he should try and save the phone numbers of certain people next time. I felt very bad for Holden. This scene basically shows the reader how awfully lonely Holden really is. Holden has only three people to contact and none of those numbers are his family members either.
C. There were some things that confused me. Firstly what was Holden's true feelings about Old Luce. I know that Holden does look up to him in a way, but he wasn't very clear on what he though about him. Secondly, if Holden was especially lonely and needed someone to talk to, why did he piss off Old Luce? At the end of Chapter 19, Holden says to Luce saying that he is awfully lonely and that he needed some compant throughout the night. So why couldn'y he have been just a civil person and talk like a normal human being with Luce instead of annoying him?
I. I agree with Ian Richter on why Holden subjects himself with the things he hates the most. Almost everything he is doing are things that he doesn't truly enjoy yet he doesn't really have anything else either. I think that Holden hates himself without actually knowing it. He always blames others for his pains to build a self-barrier from hurtful feelings, but once he does that, he ignores the true things about himself. He is ignorant to the idea that He, himself, is the true bane of his existence and that he needs to change, not others.
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Post by jotirmoykundu on Mar 24, 2014 1:02:33 GMT -5
I. I agree with Rays C response, “C. There were some things that confused me. Firstly what was Holden's true feelings about Old Luce. I know that Holden does look up to him in a way, but he wasn't very clear on what he though about him. Secondly, if Holden was especially lonely and needed someone to talk to, why did he piss off Old Luce? At the end of Chapter 19, Holden says to Luce saying that he is awfully lonely and that he needed some compant throughout the night. So why couldn't he have been just a civil person and talk like a normal human being with Luce instead of annoying him?”
D. In this part of the book, there were two quotes that I fairly liked, which are: “ The trouble with girls is, if they like a boy, no matter how big a bastard he is, they’ll say e has an inferiority complex, and if they don’t like him, no matter how nice a guys he is, or how big an inferiority complex he has, they’ll say he’s conceited. Even smart girls do it.” (Salinger 136) “It was the only dive he could do, but he thought he was very hot stuff. All muscles and no brains. Anyway, that’s who Jane dated that night, I couldn’t understand it. I swear I couldn’t.” (Salinger 135) These two quotes Holden’s envious side of the cool kids and I just found that to be so funny. The first quote gives the illusion nice guys finish last and he thinks tha refers to him.
E. I was surprised that all the people he hung out with were either a “phony” or he just plain didn’t like them. This shows that the only person for him is Jane.
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Post by petergiglio on Mar 24, 2014 7:08:32 GMT -5
i why does Holden act so immature around Carl Luce? I believe Holden is once again trying to hold onto an old memory that makes him happy. This memory being that he liked the talks about sex he used to have in school with Carl. This is another example of Holden trying to hold onto something in the past and not bettering himself
a I think Holden is a bit bit hypocritical in this chapter. He always says how immature and annoying people are, but then he goes annoys the crap out of Carl Luce causing him to get up and leave Holden. I think it is so annoying in our society today how hypocritical people are. I liked that Holden was bold, but he acts hypocritical here by doing things that he would find incredibly annoying.
C. was anything between Holden and Jane in the past? Like romantically He continually debates calling her and recalls great memories he has had with her, so I wonder if there was ever something special between them? Holden seems to like Jane a lot so I wonder if Jane has the same feelings for Holden or of Holden just has a really huge crush? Why doesn’t Holden just go home early? He doesn’t seem to really be enjoying himself and he seems to miss his family especially Phoebe so why doesn’t he just go home? Also why does Holden act so immature around Carl
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Post by hankmichels on Mar 24, 2014 8:02:42 GMT -5
D. “And while I walked I sort of thought about war and all. Those wars movies always do that to me. I don’t think I could stand it if I had to go to war. It wouldn’t be to bad if they would just take you out and shoot you or something, but you would have to stay in the army so goddam long. That is the whole trouble”. This quote shows that maybe at heart, Holden is really a coward. I wouldn’t want to go to war either, but he says he would rather be shot at then have to be in the army. This is agreeable to an extent but he was pretty harsh about. He obviously wants to go out of his way to avoid war. I don’t think this a desire for peace but more of avoiding conflict. I think Holden doesn’t feel like no one cares about him, which someone might think at first, but I feel like Holden is worried that if he dies, it might affect jane, or his family. It would easier to be shot and have it done with then have he and his family suffer not knowing how long he will live while in war.
E. I found it really funny how holden hated the movie at Radio City. The plot is that of a cheesy romance movie so I agreed with him. But how he piled all hate and contempt into this movie was pretty funny.
G. For once I agreed with holden calling someone a phony. That woman next to him was totally a joke.
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Post by youssefj16 on Mar 24, 2014 15:49:09 GMT -5
E. I found it really funny how much Holden hates so many things. When he went to the movies at Radio City, he kept criticizing how stupid the Christmas show there was. Than he went on to criticizing Religion and Jesus and how the whole thing would make him puke. He also was making fun of the way the two French girls were singing at the Hotel. He said that if you heard them singing, you wished you hadn't been alive.
C. I really don't understand what the heck is wrong with Holden. Apparently, he only has three people on his contacts list.....what? Is he that socially troubled? Also, I don't understand why he never keeps in touch with his family. If his dad is on his very short contact list, why doesn't he call him ? There has to be alot of relationship problems with them. Also, did his parents ever find out that he got kicked out of school??
I. In reply to richter's reply about the bars: I do agree with you about how every single bar he goes too is creepy and phony but I'm starting to get the feeling that he finds everything phony....The Radio City show, Religion, Girls....everything!
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Post by zaysofly on Mar 24, 2014 17:47:44 GMT -5
D: We always seee how affectionate Holden is for Jane. But Holden always seems to think about her when he is sad, or just in need of a friend. i thoughtt it was interesting that he actually called her, even though it didnt help much, it was a start to gaining his confidence. we also see Holden get a little jealous when he remembers jane going to the dance with that arrogant boy. He says that he is a jrk and doesnt like him, but jane says she just feels bad because he is stupid. Holden gets really aggrivated at the thought of her and him. Holden is such a ngative nancy somtimes, like when it came to the winter movie thaat he watched, and it obviously a great movie, but he just seems like a hater. He even gets all deep about it and starts talking about God, and how they dont like there jobs. it seems like Holden really hates other people hppiness, again connecting it to when he remembers jane going to the dance with that show off kid.
C: WHy is Holden always trying to drink and go to bars, and be older than he really is, yet he is constatly chickening out and being a little kid again? Why cant he just make up his mind. does he nt to be a kid, or want to be an adult.
E: I agree with rozzay, maybe he hangs out with these fake people, just to critisize them for his own happiness.
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Post by bakerm16 on Mar 24, 2014 18:25:09 GMT -5
E. I think Holden might have a drinking problem. We always see him at a club or drinking throughout the book. The reason? Perhaps to drown out the pain and the sorrow. A lot of adults resort to alcohol as a solution to their problems however when they drink too much too often it becomes a problem as we can see with Holden.
C. I have had this question for a few chapters now but what is Holden's relationship with his parents. Obviously he is not with them and he barely talking to them so I was wondering if they have any sort of relationship. My guesses would be no because we see that when he actually cares about someone he always talks about them. A simple example of that would be Jane. WE know already how much he caress for Jane because he always talks about her but we don't see that with his parents.
B. I thought that it was sort of pathetic when Holden goes through his phone and there are only three phone numbers. These numbers as well are completely random one is some teacher one is Luce and one is someone else. I think its pathetic because he is a teenager that seems to have about 3 friends.
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Post by mikeloseto on Mar 28, 2014 18:34:28 GMT -5
C. Once again, we see the typical Holden, confused about what he wants to do. He calls these people phonies but, yet, he still hangs out with them. I really don't understand what Holden wants. Does that make him a phony for hanging out with phonies that he calls phonies? Holden is sort of contradicting himself here. He's is calling all of these "friends" phonies, yet, only phonies would call other people phonies because Holden is technically not being real with them as they aren't being real with him. I don't even know anymore...
E. Similar to what Matt wrote, I also think Holden has a drinking problem. He keeps downing alcohol like nothing and he doesn't even realize how much he's doing it...or does he? I get the feeling that because Holden pretty much hates himself and everyone around him, he is trying to drink himself to death. Then again, he could just be drinking on and off and not think it's a big deal. Either way, I don't think it's going to turn out well for him.
I. I agree with what Matt said about Holden going through his phone and only seeing three numbers. It really is so sad and pathetic. I think that scene is the definition of having, virtually, no friends. He literally has no one.
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