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Post by Mr. Thomas on Nov 1, 2013 7:03:40 GMT -5
"Stranger at the Gates" part 2
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Post by hankmichels on Nov 2, 2013 10:54:51 GMT -5
C. Why di Athena say that all the suitors had to be slaughtered? It just doesn’t seem right. Odysseus had, I thought, a really good strategy. Beg for food disguised as a beggar and those who gave him food were the good seeds and the ones who refused to give him food were the bad seeds. Then Athena comes along and tells him that Nope, everybody has got to die. I don’t even know why she did that. For one, it is not her decision to make. It is Odysseus’s house and he should decide who dies. Plus, why do they have to die. I know the bad ones do, but why cant the good ones just be forced to leave? There could be some people in that crowd that may feel obligated to be there because maybe there brothers are there. Or they could just be good people who are just ignorant to the fact that they are harming Penelope and her family. They could be just stopping by like we would swing by a county fair were we have no idea that the government has forced the farmer to let them use his land as fairground. I feel like the honest men should be let go.
C. What was with the scene with the dog? I feel like that scene was the type of scene that would be meant to symbolize something. But it doesn’t realy and all I think this does is make the reader feel depressed.
H. Odysseus goes from man to man begging for food in the courtyard. There are walls on every side and a long table piled with food in the center.
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Post by rozzayhill007 on Nov 3, 2013 8:58:27 GMT -5
Jackson Hill
C. Something I am confused about is why the suitors had to be slaughtered. This is just about the only thing that confused me in this particular book. While they have done cruel things in the past what is the main reason for wanting to kill them?
D. Some lines that I really like are on page 369 around line 510. It says, “ Square in the back it struck Odysseus, just under the right shoulder but he stood up against it—steady as a rock, unstaggered by Antinous’ blow—just shook his head, silent, his mind churning with thoughts of bloody work. Back he went to the doorsill, crouched, and setting down his sack about to burst, he faced the suitors, saying, ‘Hear me out, you lords who court the noble queen, I must say what the heart inside me urges. There’s nothing to groan about, no hurt, when a man takes a blow as he fights to save his own possessions, cattle or shining flocks. But Antinous struck me all because of my good-for-nothing belly—that that curse that makes such pain for us poor men. But if beggars have their gods and Furies too, let Antinous meet his death before he meets his bride!” I like these lines because they show how brave and strong Odysseus is, and it shows us that Odysseus has many different character traits, also these lines are very descriptive and eye-catching to me.
I. I agree with what Hank said when he talks about the dog scene. I also feel like it should symbolize something, and should represent something in some sort of way, but I just don’t know what it specifically symbolizes.
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Post by alis16 on Nov 3, 2013 13:48:37 GMT -5
Stephen Ali Mr. Thomas English 10 Homework November 3, 2013 E. At the end of Book 17 Eumaeus leaves the palace, because he has to return to his hut leaving Odysseus, the suitors and Penelope basically all alone in the palace . I fell like the author homer ends this scene eon purpose like this to leave us thinking what will happen to create suspense, maybe, because it can be leading up to the Climax such as Odysseus confronting the suitors violently. I think since Odysseus need t go to Penelope‘s room the suitors will see him and ask him what he is doing which will lead to a lot of drama and since no one else is there to help Odysseus things can get bad fast. G. If I was Odysseus when he was given the food by the suitors and basically got in a fight with Antious who is one of the worst suitors. Basically all that happens is that he insults Odysseus for no reason so, Odysseus does the same to him, but then Antious throws a chair at him. If I was Odysseus when this happened I would have fought back more and try to do something to him. I felt that there was need for this and it kind of reminds me of the farmer guy when Odysseus was walking with Eumaeus that just insults Odysseus for no reason. I. I agree with Hank and Jackson I felt that the scene with the dog has to symbolize something.
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Post by bakerm16 on Nov 3, 2013 14:04:04 GMT -5
C. The more and more we get into the book the more and more I become suspicious and like Athena less. Throughout the story Athena has been very bossy telling Odysseus what to do. Im starting to feel more that she is not helping him but having him do some dirty work for her while just straggling him along and making him think as if she is keeping him alive. This might seem a little far fetched but after looking at previous scenes I can make sense of this. My only question however is why is she doing this for Odysseus. C. A more specific question i have is what makes Athena want to kill all the suitors. Is this her being her usual bossy self or is she for once helping out Odysseus truly and wholeheartedly. She knows that it is almost impossible for the duo of Odysseus and Telemachus to kill them all. Why is she setting him up for failure? G. I am envisioning Odysseus and Telemachus as this: jhn1703.deviantart.com/art/One-Man-Army-57921864
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Post by richteri16 on Nov 3, 2013 15:02:30 GMT -5
E. I felt so bad of Odysseus’s old dog on lines 317-341. The dog’s name is Argos. He was apparently once a proud and strong dog that hunters would love to take out with them. He was fast and energetic. Now he is lethargic and boring. On top of that he has not been cared for. He hangs around in the poop and manure of the city’s animals. He even just sits in it! The dog is infested with ticks. That must be really bad because it must itch a ton. Homer even says the dog is half dead from neglect. However, he does sense Odysseus and recognize him when he passes. Odysseus apparently notices him too and has to hide a tear from Eumaeus. The dog was too neglected and slow to even raise his head to look at him.
D. I liked Athena’s plan on lines 396-399. She tells Telemachus to have Odysseus beg from the suitors. Those who give some food to him might have a bit of good intention in them. Those who don’t are just evil and greedy. I guess this would be used as a way to gauge which suitors are possible able to be swayed later on. I like this plan.
C. Are all the suitors really that bad? When Antinous attacks Odysseus some of the suitors feel bad and are concerned with his actions. Some say that he should have not hit such a poor beggar. Others said that he would pay for what he did.
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Post by petergiglio on Nov 3, 2013 21:34:04 GMT -5
C. What confuses me is havennt found the exact role for athena yet. she is definitely not being generous or just plain nice cause the gods arent like that, they arent wired that way and the only reason i see her still involved is for some personal reason. i guess you can say she is a "gold digger" but i still dont know what she is digging for. Like why does she want the suitors dead? i mean i know why odysseus and telmachus do because, well theyre invading their house and harrasing penelope. but i dont know what her motive, as the poem progresses her true colors are starting to become revealed and i dont like them in contrast to when i saw her when odysseus was with the Phacaeins. i see two different athenas.
C. i fee like the scene with the dog is just plain pointless and wastes time, like dont be completely foward but homer is kind of beating around the bush here for some reason or trying to tell the reader something but i dont think that anyone who didnt do some research on the book wont really understand this part. '
I. i agreen with richter wondering if the suitors are really that bad cause i mean we dont meet all of them, just the bad ones and some are kind of remorseful for hitting a poor beggar but others werent. do some suitors have souls or?
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Post by idelfonsoe16 on Nov 3, 2013 21:38:58 GMT -5
C. I don’t understand why Odysseus didn’t start the fight right after he was hit on his right shoulder. That would’ve been the perfect time to show them off! Does Odysseus have a lot of patience? If that happened to me in my home, I would snap faster than a branch in a hurricane. Did Odysseus’ journey teach him said patience? Also, what was his answer to the suitors? Was he going to kill them all, spare some, or spare almost all? What does he think of the Suitors? Are some of them nice, caring people? Or are they filthy, wretched monsters in the form of humans? I. I agree with Baker, Athena is acting too sketchy now. She doesn’t seem to be “Odysseus’ helper” anymore… It seems from this point she is Odysseus’ “DO WHAT I SAY OR I WILL END YOUR LIFE” conscience! Although there is no sign of hostility, there may seem to be a bit of a plot twist soon. Whether or not Athena might become a suitor and kill Odysseus is beyond me, but IMAGINE THAT! H. Odysseus, old and begging, strides across each suitor for a scrap to eat, testing their will, testing their honesty. As he passes each one he sees which are the nice, and which are the wicked. As he pulls through each suitor, he thinks of a better way to slaughter them. Each movement he makes, he thinks of a deadlier strike. Wishing that his halls were empty with nothing but his family, Odysseus continues to beg to his unwanted guests.
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Post by michaelgenco on Nov 3, 2013 22:47:57 GMT -5
C. First off I am extremely confused why Antinous could be so cruel to a beggar. “What a brazen, shameless beggar! Scrounging food from each man in turn, and look at their handouts, reckless, never a qualm, no holding back, not when making free with the next man’s goods-each one’s got plenty here.” Also, I am confused why Antinous would throw a stool at Odysseus(The Beggar) for sticking up for himself. “ Now you won’t get out of the hall unscarred, I swear, not after such filthy string of insults.”
D. “But the moment he sensed Odysseus standing by he thumped his tail, nuzzling low, and his ears dropped, though he had no strength to drag himself and inch toward his master. Odysseus glanced to the side and flicked away a tear, hiding it from Eumaeus, diverting his friend in a hasty, offhand way.” Just thinking of this makes me so happy. After 20 years of not seeing his master Odysseus’ dog still remembered him. It shows you how much dogs love their owners, and how loyal they are. Dogs are mans best friend and that is what is showed in this quote. One thing that I was confused with was that Odysseus didn’t go and hug his dog. I know that he cried, but if I haven’t seen my dog in over 20 years I would run over and love it.
E. “Your highness, swineherd- why drag this to town? Haven’t we got our share of vagabonds to deal with, disgusting beggars who lick the feasters’ plates? Isn’t it quite enough, these swarming crowds consuming your master’s bounty- must you invite this rascal in the bargain?” I am so angry with this seen because Antinous is such a hypocrite. He says that Odysseus is taking advantage of rich people why he is doing the same thing!
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Post by vazquezm16 on Nov 4, 2013 7:13:14 GMT -5
C. I am confused as to why there were so many varying responses to the beggar. Most people did not see it as a big thing and gave him food maybe to just make him go away but Antinous seems especially angry with Odysseus disguised as a beggar. I do not think that Odysseus’ begging was that horrible considering that it was the first time that he was there. Even Eumaues calls Antinous out on his rant about the beggar as being overly harsh. Telemachus stops Eumaues from continuing the competition but I think this may have been an indirect attempt at getting in a fight with Telemachus. D. “Your highness, swineherd-why drag this into town? Haven’t we got our share of vagabonds to deal with, disgusting beggars who lick the feasters’ plates? Isn’t it quite enough, these swarming crowds consuming your master’s bounty-must you invite this rascal to the bargain?” I thought this quote was very interesting for a few reasons. First Antinous addresses Telemachus and Eumaues but calls Eumaues swineherd almost as an insult saying he is lower than Antinous. I also thought it was somewhat ironic that Antinous is so angry at the beggars who “lick the feasters’ plates” when that is exactly what he and the suitors are doing to Odysseus’ household. He then goes on to blame crowds of beggars consuming the suitors scraps as a problem. I. I agree with Jackson Hill about the suitors being slaughtered. It seems a little overkill and I don’t think that they all need to be killed. Some of them were fairly nice and gave Odysseus the scraps that he wanted. I think only the main suitors need to be killed as they are leading the others in what seems to be a mob mentality
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Post by stephanoscocoves on Nov 4, 2013 9:46:00 GMT -5
C. I was confused about Athenas plan. I thought Odysseus had a very good plan of being a beggar. But no! Athena swoops in and says that all the Suitors need to be killed. I thought she should have given Odysseus the leadership on this one, being that it was his kingdom and everything. H. I imagined Odysseus in a town square, like the one in Romeo and Juliet the movie that we watched last year in english class. I see him going from table to table begging for money and food. I. I agree with rozzayhill007 i thought Athena's plan was very harsh. I don't think they all have to be killed. That is a little much isn't it, spare some lives.
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Post by zaysofly on Nov 4, 2013 14:33:24 GMT -5
E: I felt really sad for Odysseus dog Argos in lines 318- 340. The poor dog is laying Ina pile of manure and is extremely malnourished and can barely walk. Even as Odysseus walks by the Dog still notices his scent and realizes that it is Odysseus. Then after all that 20 years of waiting the dog just dies. I was mad by this mainly because it seems like the only servant loyal to Odysseus is Eumaeus. Even though many people thought Odysseus was dead, Eumaeus still cared for Odysseus pigs. No one on the other hand cared for odysseus dog which was sad to me. It's like everyone in Ithaca gave up on Odysseus and all of his belongings. Meanwhile the suitors and servants lay back in the palace waiting to see who will be the next husband of Penelope. This is another reason why I think all the suitors should be killed.
D: I think Athena's plan is alright but I don't think she should be so nice to the suitors. It reminds me of a court session. It's like giving the people that have committed a crime or done something wrong the choice or a second chance to renounce theme selves. In other words, they have already disrespected and betrayed Odysseus while he was just trying to protect them in the war, so they should get any form of saving. Once you've messed up, you've messed up. They can learn from there mistakes another time. Also, let's say you do let the ones that give Odysseus food go, what makes you think that they won't do something like that again.
G: if I were Odysseus I would kill all of the suitors
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Post by jotirmoykundu on Nov 5, 2013 2:47:07 GMT -5
C. What I haven’t understood so far is I don’t understand Athena’s purpose so far. I think it has to do with something personal because the Gods aren’t just naturally nice. You can say she is a "gold digger" but i still don’t know what she is digging for. I don’t understand why she wants the suitors dead? It’s completely understandable for Odysseus and Telemachus because they were harassing Penelope. I dont know what her motive, as the poem progresses her true colors are starting to become revealed and i dont like them in contrast to when i saw her when odysseus was with the Phaeceans. There are basically two different Athena.
G. If I was Odysseus when he received food from the worst suitor, I would have been angry. What happens is Antinuous throws a sub (insult) at Odysseus and he throws one back, but this time around, he throws a chair at him. If I was Odysseus when this happened I would have fought back more at the least, hospitalizing Antinuous. This reminds me of the farmer guy when Odysseus was walking with Eumaeus that just insults Odysseus for no reason.
I. I agree with richter wondering if the suitors are really that bad cause i mean we have not met all of them; we just met all the bad ones and some of them have a conscience, as shown when he was hitting a poor beggar but others weren’t. Do some suitors have feelings or do none of them have it?
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Post by mikeloseto on Nov 5, 2013 17:51:10 GMT -5
C. Similar to what Jot said, I still don't understand what Athena's purpose is so far. She seems to be looking for something, almost like a treasure, but I'm not sure what exactly it is. I have this feeling that we would've known what she was searching for by now because she might have been open about it but we don't know, or at least I don't. Her desire for the death of the suitors is also kind of odd to me. Odysseus and Telemachus have more than enough reasons for their desire to have the suitors die but Athena's reason is hard to figure out. She seems to be two different people compared to how we saw her previously.
G. Again, if I were Odysseus, I would have killed all of the suitors.
I. I agree with what Ian was saying about the dog, Argos. It was a very, very sad scene especially because Argos was obviously a very strong dog at one point. Seeing him in such a pathetic state was heart breaking. The dog waited over 20 years for Odysseus to come back and by the time Argos recognized Odysseus, he was on his death bed. He tried to stand and greet him but couldn't. He wagged his tail and then died. While this story is sad, it is also nice to see. Argos finally saw Odysseus and he was able to die in peace.
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